I am training for law enforcement

[Postman]

I'm also considering the Army first. I've wanted to enlist since I was a kid. Now I have the chance to get a commission. Many of my friends think I'm dumb, which I just don't understand.

When did it become cool to not want to protect your nation, to not want to defend the defenseless?

I grew up believing that every right I have is sacred. I listen to these people everyday bitch about how bad the country is and how evil it's leaders are.

Then why don't you leave? Exactly. I'll admit, i'm not the biggest fan of bush - but presidents both good and bad come and go

/end rant - yes these small paragraphs are patchy and unelaborated. But i didn't want to take alot of time explaining myself if other people don't want to discuss it. I will elaborate if desired.

I want your thoughts on this. That's why I put it in the time wasters

[Mark Carras]

I totally agree that it is very honorable to sign up to defend your country, but our current quagmire (not just a character from Family Guy) is not about defending our country. Many of us are fighting to get our troops home and you are signing up to be sent out.

This is the problem with Bush, he has turned a very noble and honorable thing into something stupid. So I would say wait until Bush is out and a better president is in. Then sign up.

Bush has done a full on FUBAR to this country.

You say that if we don't like our leaders then leave? That goes against everything that makes this country great. If you don't like things in this country, you should fight to make it better. Not just leave. We have elections for this very reason.

Also, I have a very strong feeling that this will get moved to the drama forum since it is about a very sensitive subject matter.

[Vish]

I totally agree that it is very honorable to sign up to defend your country, but our current quagmire (not just a character from Family Guy) is not about defending our country. Many of us are fighting to get our troops home and you are signing up to be sent out.

This is the problem with Bush, he has turned a very noble and honorable thing into something stupid. So I would say wait until Bush is out and a better president is in. Then sign up.

Bush has done a full on FUBAR to this country.

You say that if we don't like our leaders then leave? That goes against everything that makes this country great. If you don't like things in this country, you should fight to make it better. Not just leave. We have elections for this very reason.

Also, I have a very strong feeling that this will get moved to the drama forum since it is about a very sensitive subject matter.

im glad you said this, mark... cuz im not sure if my reply would have been so polite. im one of those guys who talks a LOT of shit about the current state of our country, and its not because i hate america, it's because i love it. i have nothing but respect for the troops, but i do believe that anybody who joins the armed forces right now is an out-and-out idiot. not for wanting to serve and protect our country, but because it is just plain suicidal to do something like that right now. if you join right now, you have a great chance of going to iraq, and going to iraq is NOT protecting america... becuase iraq was never a threat to begin with. what good are you going to be with the training you get if you come home in a box because an oil tycoon wanted to have his war?

if you join, you will get nothing but respect from me for doing something that i can only say i came "close" to doing... but if you do this right now, i must really question your mental state as to why you would put yourself at a high risk of death. yes, i know that by joining the armed forces, there is a chance that you might see combat, but these days it is more of a guarantee than a "chance".

i would suggest waiting a couple years until we get a new president gets elected and we get the fuck out of iraq... then join.

[Bonehead]

Postman, I am proud of you for your decision to serve your country, regardless of what others might say. The military is a great place to learn so many things, especially if you want to go into law enforcement. Remember that less than 25% of our military is actually deployed in the middle east, and while duty there is dangerous (I won't get into the politics of it), there is much that can be learned there, both about yourself and the world in general. And not everything happening there is negative. We are doing some great things for the Iraqi people and most service people are able to come home proud of what they have done. Negative things happen everywhere, and I find it a shame that our media focuses solely on those instead of providing us with a balanced report.

I commend you on your willingness to serve our country, either through the military or through law enforcement. Do what is right for you, and don't worry about what others think. You have to live your own life, as they do theirs.

[Lord Zombie]

I'm also considering the Army first. I've wanted to enlist since I was a kid. Now I have the chance to get a commission. Many of my friends think I'm dumb, which I just don't understand.


I don't think your friends think you are dumb. I am thinking thet think your timing is bad. Like Mark and Vish said, wait a few years and join up.

[Mark Carras]

Postman, I am proud of you for your decision to serve your country, regardless of what others might say. The military is a great place to learn so many things, especially if you want to go into law enforcement. .

I think we all said that this was the case. Our only 'negative' was doing it now.

Despite what some might want America to believe, you can be 100% for the troops while still be against this war.

To serve your country = good
The military = good
Troops = good
This war = bad

So jumping into military service once this mess is over is a very good thing. Just not now. Look at any poll and you will see that the majority of America is against this war. Thus jumping into this war is not serving your country, but the president.

[Bonehead]

As I said, I am not going into the politics of this. And what I said was not directed at anyone here as his post was about what his friends were saying to him. What I did say was that going into the military is not a guarantee that one is going to Iraq. There is often a limited window when the military will offer incentives for enlistment, and I would seriously consider going in if the offer is right. Those offers might be off the table in 3 or 6 months and I would hate to see him pass the offer up because of a 25-30% chance of having to go to Iraq.

The trick is picking a job that has a low rate of need in a combat theater. If your test numbers and grades are high enough, the recruit often has a choice of how, and sometimes where, to serve. But make sure that you get those conditions in writing, as sometimes higher ups "forget" what is promised. Also, consider the Navy and the Air Force first, as their troops generally aren't in harms way as often. That way you can get the training you want without the much higher risks that the Army and Marines are under.

And without entering into the politics of the issue, has anyone else noticed that since we entered into conflict in the middle east that there hasn't been another attack on American soil?

[Mark Carras]

And without entering into the politics of the issue, has anyone else noticed that since we entered into conflict in the middle east that there hasn't been another attack on American soil?

Sorry, but that is totally getting into the "politics" of it all, because that is a skewed fact. That is spin since the number of people trying to blow shit up has went way up. They have failed so far, but they have tried more often. The reason? This mess in Iraq is doing nothing more then pissing them off.

Henry Rollins interviews two Iraqi War veterans,
Paul Rieckhoff and Jason Lemieux.
This is a condensed version,
edited to fit youtube's 10 minute
limit on video size.
You can watch the full interview on IFC-
http://www.ifc.com.

Here is the YouTube version:
-zfQQAqh9DU

[Bonehead]

OK then, if we really want to get into this.

First off, I am not a supporter of this war. But regardless of the reasons we are there, the fact is that we are there and there has to be a resolution. We can not just pull out and expect the whole thing to go away as if we had a little backyard scuffle. We can debate the issues all day long but it does not change the fact that we are there and we have a responsibility to the Iraqi people to provide a stable government and infrastructure before we leave.

Also, there is a group of people that want our way of life removed from the planet. It isn't a matter of pulling out of Arab countries, and it never really was. The extremists want us and our way of live eradicated, and there isn't anything that we can say or do that will change their minds. The attack on 9/11 didn't have anything to do with us being in Iraq or Afghanistan, and only nominally our support of Israel. The extreme Muslims feel that our way of life....everything from our education to our entertainment....is an abomination to God and they feel that it is their responsibility to either convert us to to remove us from the face of the earth.

Do I think that Bush was honest in his reasons to invade Iraq? No, I don't. Do I think that we should have invaded Iraq? Nope, but we did need to go into Afghanistan to remove their state sponsored terrorism. But it doesn't change the situation that we are in. We HAVE to get the government of Iraq on it's own feet and responsible for it's own security before we pull out. Right or wrong, we have responsibilities in this. But understand this, no matter what happens in Iraq, this war is a long way from over. Make no mistake about it, this is an us or them situation when it comes to radical Islam, and even moderate Islamic states like Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt know and agree with this.

As to Henry Rollins and his vets....of course there are going to be vets that are angry and disillusioned. But there are just as many that are proud of what they did. Anyone looking for an angle will be able to find vets that will support their point of view. Plain and simple, war sucks. It sucks if you are winning and it sucks if you are losing. It is a terrible shame that not everyone in the world is mature enough to be able to settle disagreements without violence. It is my hope that one day all of humanity will agree to live in harmony and allow people that are different their way of life. But it is terribly difficult to do that when another groups sole interest is in seeing us dead, with no thought to discussion or compromise.

Have we made mistakes? Yep. Have we earned the animosity that the world sees us with? Probably. Should we just roll over and die because of that? Nope. We do need to make changes in the way that we conduct ourselves worldwide. There are lots of things that we need to get our nose out of and we should concentrate on things that we desperately need here at home. But until we can straighten out the mess that we are in, we owe the Iraqi people more than just tucking our tail in between our legs and running home.

[SHUT UP AND DIE]

Postman, I am proud of you for your decision to serve your country, regardless of what others might say. The military is a great place to learn so many things, especially if you want to go into law enforcement. Remember that less than 25% of our military is actually deployed in the middle east, and while duty there is dangerous (I won't get into the politics of it), there is much that can be learned there, both about yourself and the world in general. And not everything happening there is negative. We are doing some great things for the Iraqi people and most service people are able to come home proud of what they have done. Negative things happen everywhere, and I find it a shame that our media focuses solely on those instead of providing us with a balanced report.

I commend you on your willingness to serve our country, either through the military or through law enforcement. Do what is right for you, and don't worry about what others think. You have to live your own life, as they do theirs. HOLY SHIT, DUDE......WE AGREE ON SOMETHING....AND BY "AGREE" I MEAN SERIOUSLY, WHOLEHEARTEDLY, 100% AGREE.

People can say what they want about being afraid of facing a fight they feel politcally reserved against, but when you sign up: you KNOW you are going to be a paid fighter, and that is the long and short of it. Sure, you are going to learn many, many things, acquire vital skills, and know how to be a stand up person (in most cases), but YOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE THERE TO DEFEND PRIMARILY (although I can understand why some may be nervous to serve under Bush...no one wants to be in a firefight) and that will be your job and what you are trained for. To those folks who criticize, I say: well....good thing it ain't you, eh? If you're going to question everything the boss tells you, you shouldn't work for that company....I hate to make it sound like that, but it's the truth, ya know? And that's not necessarily a bad thing, but.....it shows what you're made of. If I didn't have asthma, I would have been in for about 5 years by now. Sometimes I wish I wouldn't have told my recruiter about the asthma factor. At the time, I really, really wanted to join.....this was about 2 weeks before 9-11. I do admit to getting tired of people laying into military personel when they don't even realize that these people KNOW what they're getting into. Well....at least, they should.....anyways:

Postman, follow your heart and FUCK what others say. I'm not saying this to be mean to anyone, but you are the ONLY person that matters in a decision this heavy, and only you can realize that, man. It is a heavy, heavy thing and admirable to boot, but study all options and decipher what is best for you.

[SHUT UP AND DIE]

consider the Navy and the Air Force first, as their troops generally aren't in harms way as often. That way you can get the training you want without the much higher risks that the Army and Marines are under.

And without entering into the politics of the issue, has anyone else noticed that since we entered into conflict in the middle east that there hasn't been another attack on American soil?

Right on, dude, my wife was in the Navy for 5 years and scored high enough to be a Vietnamese linguist. She never saw combat, hell.....she was only on a boat once, and that was as a tourist, lol. Going into the military definitely does not insure that you WILL be in combat by any stretch of the imagination.

I have also noticed the lack of attacks here, although there are claims to several "foiled" attempts.

[SHUT UP AND DIE]

OK then, if we really want to get into this.

First off, I am not a supporter of this war. But regardless of the reasons we are there, the fact is that we are there and there has to be a resolution. We can not just pull out and expect the whole thing to go away as if we had a little backyard scuffle. We can debate the issues all day long but it does not change the fact that we are there and we have a responsibility to the Iraqi people to provide a stable government and infrastructure before we leave.

Also, there is a group of people that want our way of life removed from the planet. It isn't a matter of pulling out of Arab countries, and it never really was. The extremists want us and our way of live eradicated, and there isn't anything that we can say or do that will change their minds. The attack on 9/11 didn't have anything to do with us being in Iraq or Afghanistan, and only nominally our support of Israel. The extreme Muslims feel that our way of life....everything from our education to our entertainment....is an abomination to God and they feel that it is their responsibility to either convert us to to remove us from the face of the earth.

Do I think that Bush was honest in his reasons to invade Iraq? No, I don't. Do I think that we should have invaded Iraq? Nope, but we did need to go into Afghanistan to remove their state sponsored terrorism. But it doesn't change the situation that we are in. We HAVE to get the government of Iraq on it's own feet and responsible for it's own security before we pull out. Right or wrong, we have responsibilities in this. But understand this, no matter what happens in Iraq, this war is a long way from over. Make no mistake about it, this is an us or them situation when it comes to radical Islam, and even moderate Islamic states like Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt know and agree with this.

As to Henry Rollins and his vets....of course there are going to be vets that are angry and disillusioned. But there are just as many that are proud of what they did. Anyone looking for an angle will be able to find vets that will support their point of view. Plain and simple, war sucks. It sucks if you are winning and it sucks if you are losing. It is a terrible shame that not everyone in the world is mature enough to be able to settle disagreements without violence. It is my hope that one day all of humanity will agree to live in harmony and allow people that are different their way of life. But it is terribly difficult to do that when another groups sole interest is in seeing us dead, with no thought to discussion or compromise.

Have we made mistakes? Yep. Have we earned the animosity that the world sees us with? Probably. Should we just roll over and die because of that? Nope. We do need to make changes in the way that we conduct ourselves worldwide. There are lots of things that we need to get our nose out of and we should concentrate on things that we desperately need here at home. But until we can straighten out the mess that we are in, we owe the Iraqi people more than just tucking our tail in between our legs and running home.


And that is the straight up truth of the situation. Nothing can be gained by abandoning this shit now. You want to see BAD? Let's all pull our forces out of Iraq without aiding their new government in this situation. I agree with you, Bone.....of course there will be people pissed at getting fucked up in war (and it is a sad, shitty thing), but they had to be dumber than a rock to not realize that this shit can happen to them in the military. That is life, and it ain't fair........we live with it.

[Mark Carras]

OK then, if we really want to get into this.

First off, I am not a supporter of this war. But regardless of the reasons we are there, the fact is that we are there and there has to be a resolution. We can not just pull out and expect the whole thing to go away as if we had a little backyard scuffle. We can debate the issues all day long but it does not change the fact that we are there and we have a responsibility to the Iraqi people to provide a stable government and infrastructure before we leave.

That is just my point. We need to get out because it was wrong for us to be there in the first place. When this first started there was a majority of Iraqi people that welcomed us as liberators. Now they hate us too! The percentage of Iraqi people that don't want us there is getting bigger everyday we are there.



Also, there is a group of people that want our way of life removed from the planet. It isn't a matter of pulling out of Arab countries, and it never really was. The extremists want us and our way of live eradicated, and there isn't anything that we can say or do that will change their minds. The attack on 9/11 didn't have anything to do with us being in Iraq or Afghanistan, and only nominally our support of Israel. The extreme Muslims feel that our way of life....everything from our education to our entertainment....is an abomination to God and they feel that it is their responsibility to either convert us to to remove us from the face of the earth.

Yes and we are doing the exact same evil they are by trying to force our way onto them. This is why they hate us more everyday and do not want us there anymore.


Do I think that Bush was honest in his reasons to invade Iraq? No, I don't. Do I think that we should have invaded Iraq? Nope, but we did need to go into Afghanistan to remove their state sponsored terrorism. But it doesn't change the situation that we are in. We HAVE to get the government of Iraq on it's own feet and responsible for it's own security before we pull out. Right or wrong, we have responsibilities in this. But understand this, no matter what happens in Iraq, this war is a long way from over. Make no mistake about it, this is an us or them situation when it comes to radical Islam, and even moderate Islamic states like Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt know and agree with this.

As it was said in the video posted above (and many other interviews with the men and women sent), there is zero rehabilitation going on. There is no effort to get the government back on it's feet. There is however weapons being given to the insurgents by our army. That is the mess we are putting our soldiers into. They are fighting insurgents and our army is giving those insurgents weapons. This while most of our troops are still waiting for amour!


As to Henry Rollins and his vets....of course there are going to be vets that are angry and disillusioned. But there are just as many that are proud of what they did. Anyone looking for an angle will be able to find vets that will support their point of view. Plain and simple, war sucks. It sucks if you are winning and it sucks if you are losing. It is a terrible shame that not everyone in the world is mature enough to be able to settle disagreements without violence. It is my hope that one day all of humanity will agree to live in harmony and allow people that are different their way of life. But it is terribly difficult to do that when another groups sole interest is in seeing us dead, with no thought to discussion or compromise.

There is always going to be those that hate us. However, we spent a very long time without anyone flying a plane into a building. It happens once and suddenly we think we can and should change the entire thought process of the middle east.


Have we made mistakes? Yep. Have we earned the animosity that the world sees us with? Probably. Should we just roll over and die because of that? Nope. We do need to make changes in the way that we conduct ourselves worldwide. There are lots of things that we need to get our nose out of and we should concentrate on things that we desperately need here at home. But until we can straighten out the mess that we are in, we owe the Iraqi people more than just tucking our tail in between our legs and running home.

We owe the Iraqi people to stay in their country when they don't want us anymore? It is weakening our army and they don't want us there. We are told that we are there to help them, but at this point it is about saving face. It is more about not admitting that we are not stupid enough to fall into another Vietnam.


As always, we do see eye to eye on a great many things. In most debates people never seem to see how often they are on the same page. So I just want to point that part out. :D

In short I see this as jumping into a vat and noticing that it is a sewage tank. Knee deep in shit and no one wants to admit we are in shit and just need to get out, take a shower, and move on. To me it is not pulling out or putting our tail between our legs. It is about the age old stigma of man not being able to admit when they fucked up.

We should have never went into Iraq (this I believe we agree). We should have stayed focused on Afghanistan and the terrorists that flew the planes into the buildings. The longer we stay in Iraq, the more we spread our forces thin, and weaken this country's army. It's not about pulling out, but getting focused on the job that should have been done in the first place.

So how much rebuilding did we do in Afghanistan? Probably about as much as Bush plans to do in Iraq.

[Postman]

I appreciate all the input

but I don't see why this is in the drama queens section :)

I was merely looking for input

not attention

btw - you guys wrote a ton of shit and I'm a little too drunk to read it all right now :)

I'll do it later

[Mark Carras]

but I don't see why this is in the drama queens section


It was because the subject of this war is a very touchy subject. Not because we thought you were looking for attention.

[Vertigo]

I have also noticed the lack of attacks here, although there are claims to several "foiled" attempts.

First of all, you and Bonehead make a good point, that there have been many "foiled" "attempts"

Since you two are good at noticing things, did you also notice that these "foiled attempts" seem to happen when they can use the media to blow that story up and bury some other story about the president or his buddies being jackasses? I can't come up with a perfect example or a link or something... it's just a trend that I have noticed.

I'm not shy about where I stand...
Replacements Needed (http://replacementsneeded.com/)

[Vertigo]

We should have stayed focused on Afghanistan and the terrorists that flew the planes into the buildings.

We should have stayed focused on the cover up (and bad one at that) that our government pushed on everyone too uneducated to look at the pictures of that day and come up with their own conclusions.

Hehe, I'm a drama queen. But seriously... I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I'm just a person who wonders about some veeeeery interesting things when I see 9/11 pictures.

[Postman]

It was because the subject of this war is a very touchy subject. Not because we thought you were looking for attention.

see that's what I've been telling people about

for me - it's not about the war, it's really not. If I go, I go. No regrets

this is about serving my country. Not the people who run it. They are essential and inconsequential simultaneously (to me).

[Mark Carras]

see that's what I've been telling people about

for me - it's not about the war, it's really not. If I go, I go. No regrets

this is about serving my country. Not the people who run it. They are essential and inconsequential simultaneously (to me).

Well, that is the debate. Many of us feel that signing up now is not serving your country. The country as a whole does not want you over there.

The country as a whole wants the troops home safe with their families. Since only the current administration wants you there, that is who you would be serving.

[Mythos Inibri]

I never cared much for cops.I've met a few I liked though.Some of the rookie cops trying to "prove" them selves can get on my fucking nerves at times.I used to have to be around them 4 times a week at my other job but now only twice a week.What a relief...

[MistressSpin]

There are those in our country that feel the call, the need to defend, the need to stand up for everything this country is based on.

And it is because of those that answer that call, that need, that I have an opportunity to lay down in my bed everynight, an opportunity to let my grass die because I'm sick of watering it, an opportunity to drive my gas guzzling SUV every day cause it makes me feel like I'm somebody, an opportunity to raise my son with freedom of thought, speech, and being.

There is never a wrong time to answer that call.

I'm appalled by some of the statements I have read in this thread. While I know that there are very different degrees of thought and feeling on this war, and do not presume to argue with any of them, it sickens me to hear people saying wait until the war is over to answer something someone feels inside of them.

The military is a way of life. There are very good aspects to being in the military just as there are very bad aspects to being in the military. Honestly, I don't know anything in this world that doesn't have its good and bad aspects.

To say that there is a right time and a wrong time to answer a call, a need that you feel inside of yourself, is downright disgusting.

There is NEVER going to be a time when you are in the military that you have not laid your life on the line. Civilians are bliss in their ignorance. None of you know how many times a soldier is called out of the bed at 2 or 3 in the morning to load up and sit on a runway waiting to go to war, being briefed on what they are going to be jumping into. And as the air transport is going down the runway, just about to pull that wheel up off of the ground for take off, some politicians somewhere decide to pull their heads out of their asses and the air transport ends up circling back around, troops exiting, and then off to the barracks for PT and just another day of work.

All a person joining the military needs to know is that you are laying your life down on the line. It is no longer yours to manage or control. You have become a puppet and our government is the puppet master. And if you aren't willing to make that sacrifice, the military is not for you.

There is NEVER a time that is convenient for making that kind of sacrifice or commitment.

No matter what you do in this country, this world, all is began with the best and most honorable of intentions. There will always be those that carry it out, true to heart, true to self, true to country.

And those that walk that true path will always feel the rewards of living the way they were meant to and ensuring that others have the opportunity to live the way they were meant to as well.

Postman, the military is a decision you make on your own. Your friends will never understand because they are intended for a different path. No one on this board is going to be able to sway you one way or another. You already know the answer you have concluded; the only thing you need to decide is if you are going to be true to your decision. It's your path, being forged by you, and this is one of what will be many divisions in the path and only you can decide to go left or right. Whatever you decide to do in this instance, do it with honor and pride--anyone who makes a like this decision, to or not to, and stands by it, right or wrong in the eyes of others, deserves and should feel nothing less.:)

[Mark Carras]

There are those in our country that feel the call, the need to defend, the need to stand up for everything this country is based on.

And it is because of those that answer that call, that need, that I have an opportunity to lay down in my bed everynight, an opportunity to let my grass die because I'm sick of watering it, an opportunity to drive my gas guzzling SUV every day cause it makes me feel like I'm somebody, an opportunity to raise my son with freedom of thought, speech, and being.

No one has questioned the very honorable sacrifice of the American soldier. It is because of our love for the American soldier that many of us are so against this war. I for one am insulted that our current administration would take advantage of such an honorable sacrifice.


There is never a wrong time to answer that call.

So here is where we obviously disagree. I say when this administration is gone and the American soldier is not having their honorable sacrifice taken advantage of, that would be a better time. I have been told by many a veteran of the Vietnam war, that they regret not the sacrifice but how that sacrifice was dishonored by our government.


I'm appalled by some of the statements I have read in this thread. While I know that there are very different degrees of thought and feeling on this war, and do not presume to argue with any of them, it sickens me to hear people saying wait until the war is over to answer something someone feels inside of them.

Again, we obviously do not agree with this. I think our troops deserve better.


The military is a way of life. There are very good aspects to being in the military just as there are very bad aspects to being in the military. Honestly, I don't know anything in this world that doesn't have its good and bad aspects.

To say that there is a right time and a wrong time to answer a call, a need that you feel inside of yourself, is downright disgusting.

Again, we do not agree.


There is NEVER going to be a time when you are in the military that you have not laid your life on the line.

It is not laying your life down that makes it a bad time. That sacrifice is of course what makes a soldier such an honored life.


Civilians are bliss in their ignorance. None of you know how many times a soldier is called out of the bed at 2 or 3 in the morning to load up and sit on a runway waiting to go to war, being briefed on what they are going to be jumping into. And as the air transport is going down the runway, just about to pull that wheel up off of the ground for take off, some politicians somewhere decide to pull their heads out of their asses and the air transport ends up circling back around, troops exiting, and then off to the barracks for PT and just another day of work.

To say the American people are not aware of the amazing sacrifice our soldiers make is something I very passionately disagree with. I am sure that the greater majority does. This is why we are all so passionate about this whole thing. We feel that they are being punked by our own government and that is despicable and disgraceful. They deserve so much better!



All a person joining the military needs to know is that you are laying your life down on the line. It is no longer yours to manage or control. You have become a puppet and our government is the puppet master. And if you aren't willing to make that sacrifice, the military is not for you.

However, the government is supposed to be the voice of the people. Currently this is not the case. Our current administration is acting more like a dictatorship then a democracy and that goes against everything that makes this country so great. And isn't that why one makes this sacrifice in the first place? The military is there to defend America. It is not there to be the president's private militia.


There is NEVER a time that is convenient for making that kind of sacrifice or commitment.

Again, we do not agree on this. Convenience is not the issue. It is our soldiers being used to defend this country instead of being treated so poorly by it's leaders. They are still waiting for amour while our government is giving weapons to the insurgents. That is some pretty disgraceful leadership if you ask me.


No matter what you do in this country, this world, all is began with the best and most honorable of intentions. There will always be those that carry it out, true to heart, true to self, true to country.

And those that walk that true path will always feel the rewards of living the way they were meant to and ensuring that others have the opportunity to live the way they were meant to as well.

Yes, but blind patriotism is what allows people like Hitler to gain power. America will only stay being the great country it is if it's people stand up when the things that make that country great are threatened.


Postman, the military is a decision you make on your own. Your friends will never understand because they are intended for a different path. No one on this board is going to be able to sway you one way or another. You already know the answer you have concluded; the only thing you need to decide is if you are going to be true to your decision. It's your path, being forged by you, and this is one of what will be many divisions in the path and only you can decide to go left or right. Whatever you decide to do in this instance, do it with honor and pride--anyone who makes a like this decision, to or not to, and stands by it, right or wrong in the eyes of others, deserves and should feel nothing less.:)

Yes, in the end it is his decision. We just want him to think long and hard about this life changing decision. It is only because we care that we say anything. We all just want him to have as much info as possible. If he does go I wish him the best and hope he checks in as often as possible to let us know he is ok.

If he does go, maybe I can hand over Hi5's blog to him. For those that do not remember (or came along after Hi5 came back), we did have a blog from someone over in Iraq. Check that out at http://www.rockmymonkey.com/iraq/

[Bonehead]

I think this is an issue where most of us should agree to disagree. I am the son of a career Navy man, so my attitudes towards the military are obviously going to be different than most.

Mistress Spin.....I really appreciate your comments and your willingness to post them even though they aren't going to be so popular with most here. You have my respect.

It is kinda funny, though, that the feelings you have for the government, Mark, are the exact reasons that I so fully support the Second Amendment. Because I feel that we can not ever fully trust a government to always have their constituents best interests at heart is the reason that all people should have the right to arm themselves. An armed populous is the only real deterrent to tyranny.

But back to the issue. I have to disagree with you Mark on the idea that we should pull out wholesale simply because we made a mistake going in. Regardless of reasons, morally we have the obligation to do what is right by the Iraqi people. I agree we need to get out as soon as possible, but we do have to train the Iraqi's in being able to stand on their own feet. Just as quickly as possible, please! How we remove ourselves from this mess is probably as important, if not more so, than why we got into it. The world needs to see that we are willing and able to clean up the mess that we made, instead of simply leaving it to the Iraqi's to have to deal with. But, we do have to set conditions to assure that the government there does their part, and do everything in our power to bring all sides to the table to work on a lasting peace in the area.

I think the first part should be a government admission that we were wrong, and that now we are willing to do whatever it takes to set things straight. However, I seriously doubt that this will ever happen.

[Mark Carras]

It is kinda funny, though, that the feelings you have for the government, Mark, are the exact reasons that I so fully support the Second Amendment. Because I feel that we can not ever fully trust a government to always have their constituents best interests at heart is the reason that all people should have the right to arm themselves. An armed populous is the only real deterrent to tyranny.

I have never had a problem with gun rights. ;)

But back to the issue. I have to disagree with you Mark on the idea that we should pull out wholesale simply because we made a mistake going in. Regardless of reasons, morally we have the obligation to do what is right by the Iraqi people. I agree we need to get out as soon as possible, but we do have to train the Iraqi's in being able to stand on their own feet. Just as quickly as possible, please! How we remove ourselves from this mess is probably as important, if not more so, than why we got into it. The world needs to see that we are willing and able to clean up the mess that we made, instead of simply leaving it to the Iraqi's to have to deal with. But, we do have to set conditions to assure that the government there does their part, and do everything in our power to bring all sides to the table to work on a lasting peace in the area.

I honestly have no problem with staying in and cleaning up our mess if I trusted our government to do just that. The problem is that they keep fucking things up more and more. Here are two very important things to remember...

1. We never cleaned up our mess in Afghanistan, so why should we trust them to do so in Iraq?

2. Our government is giving weapons to the insurgents. That is enough to get my "No confidence" vote (in our leadership).



I think the first part should be a government admission that we were wrong, and that now we are willing to do whatever it takes to set things straight. However, I seriously doubt that this will ever happen.

Now that I can stand by 100%!

I also want to say that there are no hard feelings at all about this. We are all passionate about our country and passionate about what is best for our troops. These are good things and for the most part we are all on the same side. I would still buy a beer for any of ya! :beer

[Vish]

Postman, follow your heart and FUCK what others say. I'm not saying this to be mean to anyone, but you are the ONLY person that matters in a decision this heavy, and only you can realize that, man. It is a heavy, heavy thing and admirable to boot, but study all options and decipher what is best for you.

i think everybody who has written in this thread agrees with that. i think that the people, like me, that are discouraging him joining AT THE MOMENT, is because we all care about him. i dont know postman, but i dont want to see one more american life (or iraqi life, for all that matters) die in this war (it's not a war anymore, it's a military occupation, ftr).

[Vish]

hey mark... thanks for answering everything in practically the same way that i would have answered things... makes things easier on my keyboard and fingers :D

[MistressSpin]

I say when this administration is gone and the American soldier is not having their honorable sacrifice taken advantage of, that would be a better time. I have been told by many a veteran of the Vietnam war, that they regret not the sacrifice but how that sacrifice was dishonored by our government.

And I say that being a soldier means being prepared to make that honorable sacrifice with any administration, peace or war time. Any soldier that goes against that, regardless of administration, peace time or war time, once enlisted and prior to discharge, will face treason charges and upon conviction, at the very least, face life in a military prison, if not the death penalty. To not know this is the commitment one is making when joining the military is both naive and ignorant. A soldier posessing those two traits are the downfall to our military and cause of more deaths than I choose to think about at this point.

However, the government is supposed to be the voice of the people. Currently this is not the case. Our current administration is acting more like a dictatorship then a democracy and that goes against everything that makes this country so great. And isn't that why one makes this sacrifice in the first place? The military is there to defend America. It is not there to be the president's private militia.

The military is the long arm of the federal government. The basic concept that is not being addressed here is the definition of military vs. MILITIA. The military is here and exists soley to carry out the dictates of the federal government. The MILITIA is charged with defending America. It is a basic concept that has been twisted and warped, much as so many other principles our founding fathers laid their lives down for. There will come a time in the future of America when it will have to be decided, by every American, whether or not a person stands on the side of government or whether a person stands on the side of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The consitution charged Americans with being responsible for establishing and maintaining a militia so that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness would be defended. Either way, any soldier, in the militia or the military, that is true to their God (or lack thereof), Country, and self, deserves undying respect from the American people. They have a belief, a call, and they answer it.

As for the voice of the American people, I hate to break the news to you...but regardless of how you feel, I feel, people on this board may feel, your neighbors may feel, this administration was put into place by the majority--which currently is the only voice of the American people recognized.



It is our soldiers being used to defend this country instead of being treated so poorly by it's leaders. They are still waiting for amour while our government is giving weapons to the insurgents. That is some pretty disgraceful leadership if you ask me.

No disagreement there. But to entirely lay the blame on this administration's feet is giving them way more credit then they have coming. The war in Iraq started in the 60's. The only thing this administration has the bragging rights of is to their disgraceful handling of the situation/war.



Yes, but blind patriotism is what allows people like Hitler to gain power. America will only stay being the great country it is if it's people stand up when the things that make that country great are threatened.

That is the entire problem the Middle East has with America. To put this in perspective, what right does America have to go into any other country and tell them DEMOCRACY RULES! IT IS THE ONLY WAY! SUBMIT NOW!

Let's talk about Hitler for a minute. His intent, in the beginning, was not a bad one. It was one that the majority, or voice of Germany, agreed with. Granted, towards the end of his regime, it was not supported by the majority, or voice of Germany, however, for a period of time, it was. Much like the Greek Empire, the Roman Empire, the British Empire. For a period of time, the majority, or the voice of those Empire's believed they were a great country and the people were willing to stand up if their great country was threatened. Blind patriotism is naive and ignorant and I believe I addressed that above. Having and believing in patriotism is making a choice, a decision, and standing beside it and being willing to defend your choice, decision. And it something I belive all people on this planet, have a right to do. I give as much respect to those we fight in Iraq as I do our military. Because they have made a stand and they are willing to lay down the ultimate sacrifice to defend their thoughts, beliefs, life, liberties, and pursuit of happiness. Doesn't mean I agree with them, but I am in no position to tell them they are wrong and I am right. And until we get an administration into power that thinks that way, or similiarly, I am in a position to say conflicts such as Vietnam and Iraq will continue to plague American and its military.



***Disclaimer***
I in no way am taking this personally or attacking anyone. I am merely stating my very strong opinions and feelings on this matter. This is the Drama Queens section and I hold no, nor do I expect anyone to hold, "punches".

[Mark Carras]

And I say that being a soldier means being prepared to make that honorable sacrifice with any administration, peace or war time. Any soldier that goes against that, regardless of administration, peace time or war time, once enlisted and prior to discharge, will face treason charges and upon conviction, at the very least, face life in a military prison, if not the death penalty. To not know this is the commitment one is making when joining the military is both naive and ignorant. A soldier possessing those two traits are the downfall to our military and cause of more deaths than I choose to think about at this point.



The military is the long arm of the federal government. The basic concept that is not being addressed here is the definition of military vs. MILITIA. The military is here and exists solely to carry out the dictates of the federal government. The MILITIA is charged with defending America. It is a basic concept that has been twisted and warped, much as so many other principles our founding fathers laid their lives down for. There will come a time in the future of America when it will have to be decided, by every American, whether or not a person stands on the side of government or whether a person stands on the side of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The constitution charged Americans with being responsible for establishing and maintaining a militia so that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness would be defended. Either way, any soldier, in the militia or the military, that is true to their God (or lack thereof), Country, and self, deserves undying respect from the American people. They have a belief, a call, and they answer it.

As for the voice of the American people, I hate to break the news to you...but regardless of how you feel, I feel, people on this board may feel, your neighbors may feel, this administration was put into place by the majority--which currently is the only voice of the American people recognized.





No disagreement there. But to entirely lay the blame on this administration's feet is giving them way more credit then they have coming. The war in Iraq started in the 60's. The only thing this administration has the bragging rights of is to their disgraceful handling of the situation/war.





That is the entire problem the Middle East has with America. To put this in perspective, what right does America have to go into any other country and tell them DEMOCRACY RULES! IT IS THE ONLY WAY! SUBMIT NOW!

Let's talk about Hitler for a minute. His intent, in the beginning, was not a bad one. It was one that the majority, or voice of Germany, agreed with. Granted, towards the end of his regime, it was not supported by the majority, or voice of Germany, however, for a period of time, it was. Much like the Greek Empire, the Roman Empire, the British Empire. For a period of time, the majority, or the voice of those Empire's believed they were a great country and the people were willing to stand up if their great country was threatened. Blind patriotism is naive and ignorant and I believe I addressed that above. Having and believing in patriotism is making a choice, a decision, and standing beside it and being willing to defend your choice, decision. And it something I believe all people on this planet, have a right to do. I give as much respect to those we fight in Iraq as I do our military. Because they have made a stand and they are willing to lay down the ultimate sacrifice to defend their thoughts, beliefs, life, liberties, and pursuit of happiness. Doesn't mean I agree with them, but I am in no position to tell them they are wrong and I am right. And until we get an administration into power that thinks that way, or similarly, I am in a position to say conflicts such as Vietnam and Iraq will continue to plague American and its military.



***Disclaimer***
I in no way am taking this personally or attacking anyone. I am merely stating my very strong opinions and feelings on this matter. This is the Drama Queens section and I hold no, nor do I expect anyone to hold, "punches".

As with Bonehead, it sounds like we agree more then we disagree. That is one thing I love about the people that post on this board. In debates we find so many things we agree on. To do that everyone has to be paying attention to what the others say. That is rare as fucking hell and I love that it happens here so often! :metal

As far as Hitler goes, he was a great pied piper and had Germany eating out of his hand. Just as Bush had this country duped for a couple years. Just because a leader is able to hypnotize their public, doesn't make them right. I have never heard of any good intentions Hitler had.


On the honorable sacrifice of our troops and the individual soldier, yes they sign on and are then bound by law, honor, and duty to do what they are told when they are told. To do so is treason and would mean sure defeat. It is because of these things that we as citizens need to stand up and speak out for our troops when our government is ordering them to do disgraceful acts, not giving them proper supplies, and giving the enemy weapons that will surely be used to kill our men and women serving.

[SHUT UP AND DIE]

i think everybody who has written in this thread agrees with that. i think that the people, like me, that are discouraging him joining AT THE MOMENT, is because we all care about him. i dont know postman, but i dont want to see one more american life (or iraqi life, for all that matters) die in this war (it's not a war anymore, it's a military occupation, ftr).

War is about dying, and this is what indicates a win or a loss. That's what the game is about, those who play: KNOW THIS.

and FTR: those claiming to "have the soldier's interests" at heart yet denounce the government don't understand what a soldier is. Mistress and Bonehead both stated this, I believe.....but it's the truth. We all know Bush is a dumbass, we all know the government fucked it all up. But....and here's something lots of soldiers will tell you as well: they don't worry about the politicians. War/defense/fighting is their job and their concern when needed, not politics. The wars we took part in during Clinton's era were handled with just as much passion as the one with Dumbass in charge. As fucked up as it sounds, it is not a soldiers job to think for himself, they'll tell you that in boot camp.

[Mark Carras]

War is about dying, and this is what indicates a win or a loss. That's what the game is about, those who play: KNOW THIS.

and FTR: those claiming to "have the soldier's interests" at heart yet denounce the government don't understand what a soldier is. Mistress and Bonehead both stated this, I believe.....but it's the truth. We all know Bush is a dumbass, we all know the government fucked it all up. But....and here's something lots of soldiers will tell you as well: they don't worry about the politicians. War/defense/fighting is their job and their concern when needed, not politics. The wars we took part in during Clinton's era were handled with just as much passion as the one with Dumbass in charge. As fucked up as it sounds, it is not a soldiers job to think for himself, they'll tell you that in boot camp.



That is pretty much true and we all pretty much agree with that. My point is that that is the reason it is such a disgrace to send troops for anything other then legitimate reasons (defending our country). As I already said, it is because they sign on and are then bound by law, honor, and duty to do what they are told when they are told that we as citizens need to stand up and speak out for our troops when our government is ordering them to do disgraceful acts, not giving them proper supplies, and giving the enemy weapons that will surely be used to kill our men and women serving.

[Postman]

damn

i didn't mean to start this

there is way more than I could have hoped for (Imma have to read it this weekend)

but Thank you guys. I just hope I havne't accidentally pus the politicis button

because there are 4 things you can never discuss nicely:

1.) religion
2.) politics
3.) politics influenced by religion
4.) hot topics (related to number 3) - gay marraige, abortion, etcetera

[Bonehead]

because there are 4 things you can never discuss nicely:

1.) religion
2.) politics
3.) politics influenced by religion
4.) hot topics (related to number 3) - gay marraige, abortion, etcetera

Awwwww.......but thats what makes them sooooooo much fun! :metal

[fuzzay crisis]

Postman, if it's where your heart truly is, i say go for it. i am neither for or against war. but if you decide to enlist, please just be careful.

[MistressSpin]

Awwwww.......but thats what makes them sooooooo much fun! :metal

Oh hell yeah! :rotfl:beer

[Mark Carras]

damn

i didn't mean to start this

there is way more than I could have hoped for (Imma have to read it this weekend)

but Thank you guys. I just hope I havne't accidentally pus the politicis button

because there are 4 things you can never discuss nicely:

1.) religion
2.) politics
3.) politics influenced by religion
4.) hot topics (related to number 3) - gay marraige, abortion, etcetera

Awwwww.......but thats what makes them sooooooo much fun! :metal

Oh hell yeah! :rotfl:beer

Yeah, don't stress it Postman. Although it is extremely rare to be able to discuss these things nicely, but this place does manage to pull it off. We all maintain a mutual respect for each other while trying to show the others why we believe what we believe. We just do our best to watch our words and make sure it is more about being informative then it is about insults and saying stuff like "anyone who think that _____ is just plain retarded", or "To belive ___ is ignorance", or "____ is just an uninformed line of thinking". Instead we try to stick to the facts and try to be informative as best as possible.

Again, it is rare to have such hot button issues talked about with such diplomacy, but we manage to do it here.